Worthy of Discussion
JILL SAYS
I'm thinking of tattooing the Nike swoosh on my forehead. Something artistic and well-done, but still BIG and smack in the middle of my head. Hey, my kids aren't the only ones who know about attention seeking behavior.
Here's the deal. Eric recently got back from a day of golf with four buddies. All married men with children. Here is the gist of our post-golf conversation:
Jill: So, how is everyone? what's new?
Eric: Not much . . . .fine I guess.
Jill: Oh, well how are their kids liking school so far?
Eric: Ummm. . . I dunno. I guess we didn't talk about that.
Jill: Well what about so-and-so's wife's pregnancy? She must be due soon, huh?
Eric: What? They're having another kid? I didn't know.
Jill: Blink - Blink - Blink. Well, what DID you all talk about for the last FOUR hours?
Eric: Ummm . . . .golf?
Want to know the mental picture in my head when he says this?
Doh!
Does this conversation sound familiar to anyone else? Eric gently explains to me that men don't talk about their families. It isn't done. Oh, he might talk about our oldest son's sports activities, but that's sports - safely in the guy comfort zone. Now, I'm 96.5% sure that Eric and all his friends love their families more than sports, so why the code of silence? What gives? Do I really need to get that Nike tat to be worthy of discussion?
So Eric, I'm sure you don't want to talk about this, but tell us, how do you plead?
ERIC SAYS
Guilty as charged. I know the calendar reads 2006, and I know men are supposed to be all enlightened, but when it comes to talking to other men about our kids, we just haven't yet figured how that fits into our view of what it means to be a 21st Century man. After all, we are practically the first generation of men in recorded history expected to be equal partners in the raising of our children. That's a heavy burden for us, seeing how it cuts into our evening tv-viewing time. And what self-respecting "guy's guy" would want to be "outed" to his golfing buddies as some sort of caring, loving father who goes around on the golf course talking about his kids? Exactly.
Instead, men pretend to our friends that we're hands-off parents. We pretend that only our wives change the diapers. That we are able to sit, uninterrupted on the couch each night, smoking our pipes and reading the paper while our small children remain unseen and unheard. Collectively, I think all men engage in this little charade where we pretend that we still wear the pants and that our wives take care of the kids. Of course, we all know this is completely untrue, but it's our fantasy and we expect our friends to believe it.
If it makes our wives feel any better about our seemingly callous attitudes toward our families, we guys are at least consistent. We also don't really talk much about our relationships with our guy friends. Unlike on the home front, very little relationship talk takes place when men get together on the golf course. Rarely, if ever, do my friends ask me about whether we are "meeting each other's emotional needs" or why I "never cuddle anymore," nor, come to think of it, do you hear them asking me things like, "why can't you think about someone other than yourself, Eric?"
Anyway, because of this code of silence, I just assume all my friends have emotionally-fulfilling marriages and enjoy great relationships with any children they might or might not have. . . .But I guess I wouldn't really know about that.
I'm thinking of tattooing the Nike swoosh on my forehead. Something artistic and well-done, but still BIG and smack in the middle of my head. Hey, my kids aren't the only ones who know about attention seeking behavior. Here's the deal. Eric recently got back from a day of golf with four buddies. All married men with children. Here is the gist of our post-golf conversation:
Jill: So, how is everyone? what's new?
Eric: Not much . . . .fine I guess.
Jill: Oh, well how are their kids liking school so far?
Eric: Ummm. . . I dunno. I guess we didn't talk about that.
Jill: Well what about so-and-so's wife's pregnancy? She must be due soon, huh?
Eric: What? They're having another kid? I didn't know.
Jill: Blink - Blink - Blink. Well, what DID you all talk about for the last FOUR hours?
Eric: Ummm . . . .golf?
Want to know the mental picture in my head when he says this?
Doh!Does this conversation sound familiar to anyone else? Eric gently explains to me that men don't talk about their families. It isn't done. Oh, he might talk about our oldest son's sports activities, but that's sports - safely in the guy comfort zone. Now, I'm 96.5% sure that Eric and all his friends love their families more than sports, so why the code of silence? What gives? Do I really need to get that Nike tat to be worthy of discussion?
So Eric, I'm sure you don't want to talk about this, but tell us, how do you plead?
ERIC SAYS
Guilty as charged. I know the calendar reads 2006, and I know men are supposed to be all enlightened, but when it comes to talking to other men about our kids, we just haven't yet figured how that fits into our view of what it means to be a 21st Century man. After all, we are practically the first generation of men in recorded history expected to be equal partners in the raising of our children. That's a heavy burden for us, seeing how it cuts into our evening tv-viewing time. And what self-respecting "guy's guy" would want to be "outed" to his golfing buddies as some sort of caring, loving father who goes around on the golf course talking about his kids? Exactly.
Instead, men pretend to our friends that we're hands-off parents. We pretend that only our wives change the diapers. That we are able to sit, uninterrupted on the couch each night, smoking our pipes and reading the paper while our small children remain unseen and unheard. Collectively, I think all men engage in this little charade where we pretend that we still wear the pants and that our wives take care of the kids. Of course, we all know this is completely untrue, but it's our fantasy and we expect our friends to believe it.
If it makes our wives feel any better about our seemingly callous attitudes toward our families, we guys are at least consistent. We also don't really talk much about our relationships with our guy friends. Unlike on the home front, very little relationship talk takes place when men get together on the golf course. Rarely, if ever, do my friends ask me about whether we are "meeting each other's emotional needs" or why I "never cuddle anymore," nor, come to think of it, do you hear them asking me things like, "why can't you think about someone other than yourself, Eric?"
Anyway, because of this code of silence, I just assume all my friends have emotionally-fulfilling marriages and enjoy great relationships with any children they might or might not have. . . .But I guess I wouldn't really know about that.
Labels: Jill and Eric
posted by Jill at 8:15 PM
18 Say it:
Put four women on the golf course for 4 hours together and we would not only know that baby's due date, but we'd know the first and middle name picked out, the color of the nursery, when and where the baby was conceived, and whether she plans to get an epidural during labor. Of course, our golf game might not be as good, but at least we'd have the important details!
How do men decide who they want to be friends with? Just anyone they can talk about sports with? There must be something else reflective in their personalities that draws them together.
Men just communicate different. That's all there is to it. Not always a bad thing, just not the way we gals would do it.
If i want detail about something going on in my hubby's family, I call my MIL.
It does me no good to ask him. Besides then I get all the good family gossip! great post, both of you.
Women in general talk a lot about relationships and their daily lives. My conversations with my friends usually entails the Yankees, cars, the hot waitress, things we need to do around the house, etc. Don't get me wrong, I do occasionally talk to one or two of my close friends about private, family stuff, but when I'm with my friends, I step outside, my dad/husband role a little and just try to have a good time. On the occasion that I do play golf, we all talk about how much we suck and shank into the woods a lot. Not to mentions racing the golf carts all over the place.
I can about my friends personal well being, but if something is bothering me or them a lot, we'll talk about it. If not, it's not a part of the normal conversation.
The husband and wife go to a party with their friends. During the party, they break off into male and female packs. On the way home, the wife talks endlessly of all the nitty gritty details she learned from her female friends.
Finally, she says: "What did you find out?"
Husband: "Ahhhh ... ummmm ... Bob got a new drill - DeWalt - 18 volt."
maybe when you're together guys don't walk to talk about the family.. maybe guys can seperate it, where women have it become a part of who they are. i think women have a harder time seperating and keeping hold of WHO they are, outside moms. you know? PLUS- women are way more gossipy, nosey, and question whorey- the guys don't ask, they don't tell. we know women ASK eachother EVERYTHING!
I think what Jennster said is right on. I don't think my husband talks about us or the kids when it's just him and the guys, I think he talks about working out and cars and stupid ass video games and hell which football games are going on that weekend. Women like to talk about feelings and babies and okay fine we like to gossip.
One thing I think is cool though, is that even though they aren't talking about it, they come home and are present in their wives and kids lifes. I guess that is what counts. Although the not even knowing the wife was pregnant was kinda funny to me.
Sometimes when I go out with my girlfriends, we try to NOT talk about our kids and husbands. It starts of challenging, but after a while we get the hang of it.
Wouldn't it be funny if men did the same thing, but opposite - try to only talk to each other about their wives and kids?
Eric, Big J said the same thing to me when I told him his cousin had a baby - "What! She was pregnant!?!"
My husband has been carpooling to work with the same guy for almost a year. He suspects this guy is separated from his wife, because he hears him on the phone making plans to pick up his kids for the weekend. But he will NOT come out and ask his friend if everything is okay at home.
Now, if that was me, or any woman I think, we would know what happened, when it happened, who else is involved, everything. But unless this guy volunteers the information, my husband will never know what's going on. It drives me crazy!
Too funny. I envy guys for being able to leave home at home.
Lisa
love this site by the way. very cool idea. it's always very interesting to read what the couple's say.
Lisa
I often tell people not to leave a message for me with Touchstone. He might remember to tell me someone called, and he might remember a name, but the details frequently get lost in translation.
But I sometimes think it is cool that guys can get to know each other apart from their families. Their identitites are less tied up with their spouse and kids. They are known more for their sense of humor, their own likes and dislikes, and their feelings on politics and sports. While women are sometimes known more for whose mom they are, or other relational identifications. Interesting. I think that is why many SAHMs suffer with a kind of identity crisis - their lives and identities very easily get wrapped up in their relationships with others, are less dependent on their own personalities, passions, and beliefs.
All that to say - don't leave Touchstone any detailed messages for me - just send me an email. :)
I realized this when Mike started his blog. Mine is sickeningly filled with mommy, baby, realationship stuff and the like. But his on the other hand barely has a mention of family. He does occationaly write about us, but he feels like he needs a disclaimer first.
Warning: The following post is about family....all guys avert your eyes!!!
lol It's ok though....I don't mind (much) he's a wonderful father and husband....which is all that matters.
i have another problem when it comes to guys talk, i've always been the one who likes to hang out with the boys, no offense ladies but sometimes i just can't deal with the relationship/family/drama talk so i go and wonder to the guys side...
my husband knows how i am and from what i know he has no problem with it, i give him enough space that he gets to hang out with the boys alone and he really has nothing to hide from me-- the problem is the other guys, they don't know how to act when a girl is around they get all self conscious and feel they have to change the subject of whatever they are talking about because i am a wife. It drives me crazy, i am far from being a tomboy but i like to hang out with the boys i like talking about sports, politics, music and i don't even mind when they start talking about the hot waitress, i am usually the one who gets her phone number for the single guys, my husband tells them, nothing phases me, i've been around guys long enough to know...
so boys please, don't worry i won't tell your wife if you were checking the waitress, don't get all paranoid or self conscious if a girl sits with you, we don't all want to talk about relationships...
Hey Nini, thanks for showing up! I agree that sometimes guy talk can be more relaxing. I hate it when girl talk gets all gossipy and catty. Most of the time it doesn't. . . but sometimes. . . . As for why some men get uptight when a woman is around, I dunno, maybe they still think we have cooties or are disapproving of them or something.
Also, for the record, I'm pretty sure that I have never asked Eric whether we are "meeting eachother's emotional needs" or why we "never cuddle anymore." Although that last one, that one about "why can't you ever think about anyone but yourself, Eric," I guess that could have possibly come out of my mouth once or twice or fifty-seven times.
Jill, are you sure you weren't listening in on the last conversation I had with MY husband after he went out with friends he sees, maybe, once a year?
Hmmm, my situation is the opposite. My husband is Indian and he is constantly amazing me with the awesome scoop that he is always coming home with - White guys AND Indian guys the same. Seriously - he is a Gossip Girl's wet dream with some of the stuff that people confess to him.
OMG! How have I never been to this site before? Genius idea! Just genius! I'm so going to get my husband to read this.
Golf is wasted on non talkers. Because that's at least four good uninterruped hours of perfect catch up slash discussion time.
Oh, what? You're not supposed to talk in golf?
Well. Then. Um. Then that's really a lot of wasted time.
Unless you're a complete introvert. Or a mime.
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